A Logical Christianity

Unfortunately God needs time to make time.

Unfortunately God needs time to make time.

Excellent point!

There are many plausible definitions of time. I would ask you to consider the aspects of string theory, in which the universe is probablistically viewed as a brane. In such scenarios, there are a number of dimensions in excess of the immediately observable four. One of the four observable dimensions is time.

Of course, I am offering a leading statement. And I would like to know if you can accept this premise.

Excellent point!

There are many plausible definitions of time. I would ask you to consider the aspects of string theory, in which the universe is probablistically viewed as a brane. In such scenarios, there are a number of dimensions in excess of the immediately observable four. One of the four observable dimensions is time.

Of course, I am offering a leading statement. And I would like to know if you can accept this premise.

11 dimensions are envisioned, and I think I know where you are going here. If you are going to assert that God would live in a different dimension, there is still a problem. No matter which dimension he is in, there would have to be time in order for anything to happen.

If there is a change in state, there is time, and nothing that changes state is timeless. Also, an explanation of where that other dimension came from would be necessary.

It is also necessary that any higher dimension share the properties of all lower dimensions. It also may be that what we consider as the 4th dimension is the time dimension for all other dimensions. For example, we are 3 dimensional beings moving through a 4th dimension, but the 2nd and 1st dimensions also share the 4th dimension movement with us. In that way, the 4th dimension could be the 11th dimension, we just have no way to experience the other 7.

Type yoI agree with everything you conclude within the confince of the currently envisioned 11 dimensions. But what if there are more still?

there is still a problem. No matter which dimension he is in, there would have to be time in order for anything to happen.

Not necessarily. If timelessness were the attribute beyond, not within the 11, then only the eleven comprise both space and time. Of course you may have to acknowledge that there are things beyond the capacity of reason. Although logic is the best basis we have with which to reason our cosmology, it has its limitations.

Is it not reasonable that a temporal reality can evolve as part and parcel of an infinite one?
ur reply…

Is it not reasonable that a temporal reality can evolve as part and parcel of an infinite one?

I can't imagine that being the case. If the universe didn't exist at one time, but now it does, that means whatever existed prior to the universe existing had the experience of existing without the universe. It now has the experience of existing with the universe. This is a temporal relation that can't be ignored, no matter where one would imagine God existing.

William Lane Craig tries to say that God existed timelessly without creation, but is temporal with creation. I can't envision how something could exist timelessly and then temporally.

This is a difficult thing to explain, but something can either be temporal or atemporal. If an atemporal thing exists, and becomes temporal, it was actually always temporal, because atemporal things experience no change. If a temporal thing exists, it can never become atemporal, because it has experienced change.

A thing is atemporal only if it never experiences change eternally. Once any change happens, all it does is give a method to measure time. Saying that thing was timeless is like saying that a line has no measurement merely because you have no ruler.

Again, I appreciate your argument.

This is a temporal relation that can't be ignored, no matter where one would imagine God existing.

By mathematical definition, a line has no endpoints. Only a line segment has endpoints. But this anlaogy is also weak, I'll admit. But a point, however small, is made.

If the universe didn't exist at one time, but now it does, that means whatever existed prior to the universe existing had the experience of existing without the universe.

Agreed!

It now has the experience of existing with the universe.

Also agreed!

You presume to draw an objective point of view regarding an atemporal concept. In doing so, you impose a frame of reference, thereby creating a temporal viewpoint. Then you impose that point of view on something that does not have the same limitation. “It” is a very big word, which belies an egocentric presupposition.

An infinite thing can only be viewed subjectively. Any objective view of infinity requires a frame of reference. A temporal relation is one with such an objective frame of reference. Therefore, change can only be perceived from within a temporal framework. Unless you have an infinite perspective, you can not present an objective analysis without relegating the infinite to a temporal state.

A straight line can have an infinite number of line segments. With ruler in hand, you can count them, and you may measure them…forever. Whereas an infinite perspective may perhaps regard your efforts as vanity.

Remember, to many scientists, the material universe is probabilistically finite.

Well, the unit of measure still has relevance. If God existed prior to the universe, and God didn't have a beginning, God must be infinitely old. Most apologists seem to go along with William Lane Craig on this and say that God existed timelessly prior to creation and temporally after it. The problem is, I don't buy this timelessness B.S.

Further, I don't buy the argument that the universe began to exist. At least not in the way that creationists believe it. There is no reason to believe that whatsoever. There is no way to show evidence for it, and there are many ways that the universe could have been eternal. Without that piece of the puzzle, the whole cosmological argument fails. (I know we weren't arguing that, but it was so close to being there, I put my finger on the scale.)

Anyway, time is a tricky thing. There are many different viewpoints on it. I have never heard two people agree on much, and I don't envision anyone coming up with all the answers about time in my lifetime.